Norman Samuels

74 years old, NS came from Jamaica in December 1960, weather was good, in 1961 terrible winter. Describes the house he lived in; NS had come for 5 years and intended to return to Jamaica, but he started college in the UK and didn’t have the money to return. He worked and studied; He worked at nights and went to college in the daytime. NS was 22 years old, he was studying at the College of Commerce in the centre of Bristol.

NS had a cousin in Bristol. NS was made welcome at the college

People at the college; during the holidays NS worked at Bristol Temple Meads

Talking about family in Jamaica; one of his brothers went to Canada, the others stayed in Jamaica; Education system in Jamaica

What did you think it was going to be like?

NS had a cousin who had come over to the UK for five years, got a qualification and returned to Jamaica to a good job, NS wanted to do the same but it didn’t work out that way for him; 

NS ‘s girlfriend came over from Jamaica, she was only 17, they still intended to return to Jamaica together, his wife started training as a nurse, but then they started a family and stayed in the UK. NS speaks about difficult times in those early years.

NS felt that the British were afraid of black people; he hadn’t expected racism in the UK; NS found the accent and the language difficult, different from the English in Jamaica; Surprised that English people/white people did manual work; NS realised that many people in the UK had a poor education, education better in Jamaica; Jamaicans were better dressed; the food was lousy, the main food was fish and chips which NS didn’t like; 

Could you buy West Indian Food?

There were two shops and a travelling van – Mr Herring in Grosvenor road and a man by the name of Wilcox in Picton Street, speaks about Mr Herring who was very odd, he wouldn’t wrap anything up, he sold yam, cassava, Jamaican food, the food came via London or Birmingham.

NS also discovered that many Jamaicans had poor accommodation, five to a room, some couldn’t get anywhere and slept in trains at night; NS lived in St Pauls. NS was called all sorts of names when he worked at Bristol Temple Meads, he didn’t respond because he didn’t know what they meant, he didn’t realise at first that they were racist; NS speaks about this and other racist comments, people asking him if he had a tail. NS speaks about written English and Jamaican Patois, Louise Bennett; 

Do you think the British Government should have education the people about immigration?

NS speaks about the UK missing out on speaking other languages. NS speaks about class system in the UK.

NS talks about the situation on the buses, the colour bar, and explains about what happened when Paul Stephenson sent Guy Bailey for an interview which he didn’t get because he was black.

NS didn’t agree with Paul Stephenson’s methods – he made a big noise, he got thrown out of pubs and clubs

NS agreed with Bill Smith – NS thought that the white people were ignorant and didn’t understand – it was a white world, what PS was doing was encouraging people to fight each other; he was born here; 

It blew out of proportion, it included the manager and all the bus crews, speaks about Learie Constantine, Harold Wilson speaking up for the boycott, then NS decided that he had to join in somehow, he spoke at meetings.

NS found out about the Boycott through the newspaper, NS thought that the media was in favour of the bus company, NS looked upon the busmen as being childish and simpletons, even some white people thought this; 

NS speaks about Mr Sing (the first black bus conductor) he started work with the company a week before NS. Initially there were five black or coloured people taken on as bus conductors.

NS describes the training and the interview. Many black people were reluctant to apply because they thought the interview would be too difficult. In effect it was very simple and NS passed the interview and didn’t even have to take a test. NS comments that Paul Stephenson and the Bus boycott had wanted him to take a test to show it was easy and encourage other people to apply.

NS was adamant that he wanted to be treated the same as white interviewees. At the interview NS was asked if he understood English money, he had to explain to his interviewers that it was exactly the same as in Jamaica, as was the language.

NS was interviewed by two people, two middle aged white men, they were concerned if I passed they would have a problem. After NS passed he told the others that there was nothing to fear, however it was about two years before the bus company took on any more black or coloured crews.

NS was very sharp about responding to racist remarks and comments which continued throughout his employment with the company. 

It was 1963

Did people actually participate in the Boycott?

Yes some people refused to go to work, there was no shortage of work, he had a friend who had four different jobs in one day, only £7 per week. The buses were worst paid but there was a lot of overtime.

Overtime?

Discussion about the Bristol Omnibus Company using the excuse of overtime for not employing black bus crews. I don’t think that was the reason but it was a reason….they were always short of bus drivers and conductors.

NS didn’t agree with the Boycott at the start, he thought it would diminish because the heart of the problem was that the white British people were afraid of the black people. NS tells an anecdote about his white elderly neighbours at the time.  

NS thought race relations would improve as the whites got used to the black people, but they didn’t, he felt he had to do something to let people know the truth about Jamaicans, so he went on the buses.

NS speaks about the endless misunderstandings between the white management and the black bus crews.

Anecdote about speaking to manager about black staff becoming managers.

Ambition to come a driver or an inspector – NS put his name down to become a driver. Tells an anecdote about the newly arrived ‘simulator’ to teach new drivers, it was useless for people who already knew how to drive. NS failed on the simulator but demanded that an experienced driver try it out, this driver failed to so NS was passed and moved to the next stage which was driving a bus in a figure of eight for a whole day.

NS became the first black driver on the Bristol Buses.

.What happened when I was a conductor, no driver wanted to work with me, and after I became a driver no conductor want to work with me……. at no time of the day was a bus empty, there was a bus every five minutes and they were all full, but when I became a driver no conductor would want to work with me until they found out that nobody want to take my bus either. The only person that gets on my bus when I was a driver is those that don’t look at the cab. You pull up at a bus stop and there are about twenty people there and if they want to go to work some of them just rushed in without knowing it was a black man, but after they look in the cab nobody want to go on the bus…….I was of that character that I only laughed after these things because I found it very very simple and couldn’t understand of all the people in the world the British people behaving in this manner, in this simple foolish manner.

NS then speaks about Mrs Chigger changing every duty to work with him because she was lazy and knew his bus would be quiet. Speaks about getting friendly with Mrs. Chigger even though she still called him ‘chocky’.

NS speaks more about putting up with abuse from passengers and conductors. Talks about a particular incident when one conductor got off his bus and left him. 

Those things strengthened me..I was the only driver in Bristol for nine months or a year, they were saying that I didn’t shut the door, didn’t wait until the passengers sit down…all kinds of things.

NS speaks about a manager called Finnigan who used to call you in your meal times to report to the Superintendent. NS describes standing up to racist treatment by the Superintendent.

Did you have anyone to talk to about this

NS speaks about Paul Stephenson and the differences between them; Nine months after he was driving, no other black people applied – NS began to wonder how to respond to his treatment by his white colleagues.

Speaks about the Sikh conductor, they became good friends., although they didn’t see each other much as worked in different depots.

Discussion about Paul Stephenson

Did people respect Paul Stephenson?

People felt that he was stirring up trouble, NS thought he went too far, could have been more subtle.

What did the Jamaican Community feel?

At that time they were in their shell, we were all workers, people worked behind the scenes, they didn’t get recognition for what they did. Discussion about how PS knew how to manipulate the media and the bus company

Is it about Bristol?

The people in Bristol were really ignorant from top to bottom. NS says there were black bus drivers in Bath, a black bus driver drove a bus to Bristol but Bristol made him go back to Bath as a passenger. NS just couldn’t understand this, and couldn’t understand the mentality of racism in Bristol.

White students protesting

NS thought this was a bit of a charade – but he was grateful to them because they did change the attitude of the bus company. Strength of student protest

NS tells an incident when driving with an instructor. The black drivers always got the worst instructors

NS was a driver for 15 years, it took about a year for the bus company to take on other black bus drivers.

NS relates more racist incidents, being allocated a bus that was out of service, being told he was late for work, not being allocated a bus.

Did it get better?

It got a little better as the old hands went, when the younger ones come on..when the superintendent died, Mr Bleadon?, things changed, he wanted me to be the first inspector, not until about ten years later did we have a coloured inspector, the blacker you are the worse they treat you. They did not see a deep coloured person occupying any job of any importance.

Did you talk to your wife about it?

She didn’t want to talk about it, she didn’t want me to go on the buses, she was afraid because of the Teddy Boys who were around who were reputed to nail a cross on your front door and try and burn you out. NS’s wife wanted NS to give up working on the buses but he said – If I do that they will win and our children will suffer the same fate, so you have to do something to educate these people., they are different now.

NS speaks about being wary of giving interview from past experience

Extremely interesting and well told story:

NS tells the story of his bus breaking down in Fishponds and being done for harassment by the police. He was taken to court and sacked by the Bus Company, Ron Nethercott was the head of the Transport Union at the time. He was found guilty of assaulting the police and causing an affray. He immediately appealed; he applied to a black barrister in London because there were no black solicitors in Bristol, NS found him through a cousin. The Barrister refused to speak to NS, it transpired the Barrister’s phone was being tapped. The fee was three thousand pounds, NS couldn’t get legal aid; In the original trial the judge, solicitor, jury, were all white. He was fined £200, a friend offered to pay it for him. NS refused to pay:

It’s not a matter of winning or loosing, I don’t consider I did anything wrong, if anything I would prefer to go to prison

When NS had his appeal, he was found entirely innocent and his appeal was upheld. I could almost cry in court, the last time I had cried was a beating from my father when I was fourteen for smoking, I didn’t want anybody seeing me crying and as soon as I heard my appeal was upheld I just walked out of court. The barrister said congratulation and said you should apply for a job as a magistrate.

NS speaks about the corruption of the police and the effect on young Jamaicans

This was in 1966?

NS speaking about keeping a low profile. NS speaks about his son Vernon Samuels

NS compares race relations today to the past.